Guest: Dr Sridhar Mitta, Former CTO of Wipro and first hire for Wipro R&D.
Episode Summary:
He was the first hire of Wipro's IT business. What happened next shaped India's tech destiny.
Imagine the early 1980s in India—an environment where building hardware was nearly impossible. It was here that a young visionary, Dr. Sridhar Mitta, joined Wipro as the very first hire of its nascent IT division.
He wasn't just building a company - he was building an industry.
In the inaugural episode of my new podcast, Chai & Chips, I had the honour of sitting down with the legend himself to uncover the untold stories behind India's technological rise.
YouTube episode link:
Key Insights:
The inaugural episode of "Chai & Chips" with Dr. Sridhar Mitta is more than a history lesson; it's a foundational masterclass in building a world-class technology industry from the ground up against improbable odds. Dr. Mitta’s journey from being the first employee of Wipro’s IT business to a celebrated social entrepreneur provides a living blueprint filled with timeless principles for today's innovators.
The conversation reveals several key themes crucial for India's ambition to become a deep tech leader.
1. Innovation Thrives Under Constraint, Driven by Integrity
The early 1980s in India were defined by the "License Raj," a period of stifling regulation that made building anything, especially technology, a monumental task. Dr. Mitta’s stories paint a vivid picture of this era, not as a barrier, but as a crucible that forged creativity.
The "Design & Drawings" Hack: Faced with a government that didn't even have a category to approve the import of software, Wipro ingeniously classified their crucial operating system as "design and drawings." This wasn't just a clever workaround, it was a solution rooted in finding an ethical and legal path forward.
The Customs Officer and the Nail: The hilarious yet telling anecdote of a customs officer confiscating their first batch of imported floppy disks by putting a nail through them highlights the profound lack of technological understanding they had to navigate.
Insight for Today: For today's founders, this is a powerful reminder that the biggest obstacles often demand the most creative, principle-driven solutions. True innovation isn't just about technology. It's about navigating and reshaping the ecosystem itself.
2. Strategic Foresight: The Bet on Open Systems and Microprocessors
While global giants like IBM were heavily invested in proprietary mainframes and minicomputers, Dr. Mitta saw a different future. His decision to build Wipro’s systems on the emerging microprocessor technology was a pivotal, company-defining bet.
Vertical vs. Horizontal: Dr. Mitta clearly explains the industry's shift from "vertical" (one company controls everything) to "horizontal" (components from different vendors create a system). He recognized that this shift would democratize computing, reduce costs, and eliminate customer lock-in.
The Power of Ecosystems: By choosing Intel processors and a licensed operating system, Wipro wasn't just building a computer; it was plugging into a nascent but powerful global ecosystem. This allowed them to build a world-class machine in less than a year.
Insight for Today: This underscores the importance of not just inventing technology, but also understanding and leveraging tectonic shifts in the industry. Identifying the right platform—be it RISC-V, open-source AI models, or the next big architectural shift—is as critical as the invention itself.
3. Building a World-Class R&D Culture from Scratch
Dr. Mitta’s most enduring legacy at Wipro is arguably the formidable R&D culture he established. He built this on a foundation of deep technical competence, customer-centricity, and strategic global partnerships.
The High-Stakes Bet on Talent: The decision to invest 3 crore rupees (75% of the entire annual R&D budget) in building an in-house VLSI chip design capability was audacious. He recognized that owning the core design competency was non-negotiable for long-term success.
From Cost Center to Profit Center: He transformed R&D from a necessary expense into a profit-generating powerhouse, creating the "India Development Center" (IDC) model long before it became the industry standard (ODC/GCC).
A Culture of Quality: By pursuing and achieving global quality standards like ISO 9000 and CMM Level 5, Wipro R&D built trust and credibility with international clients, proving that world-class quality could be delivered from India.
Insight for Today: Deep tech success isn't just about a single product; it's about building a sustainable, talent-rich organization. Investing in people, processes, and a customer-first mindset is the only way to build an institution that lasts.
4. The Second Act: Technology as a Tool for Social Impact.
After a storied career, Dr. Mitta didn't retire; he pivoted. His co-founding of NextWealth, a for-profit social enterprise, demonstrates a profound commitment to using technology as a force for good.
Solving the Right Problem: Recognizing that gainful employment is a root solution to many social challenges, NextWealth focuses on creating high-tech jobs for graduates in small towns.
Empowering Women: By bringing jobs to where the talent is, NextWealth removes the barrier of migration, creating significant opportunities for women who might otherwise be unable to join the workforce.
Insight for Today: Dr. Mitta’s journey shows that the ultimate purpose of technology and entrepreneurship can be to create a more inclusive and equitable society. For innovators in India, this model of building a profitable business with a deep social conscience is both inspiring and achievable.
Dr. Mitta’s conversation is a testament to the power of a single individual's vision to shape the destiny of an industry and a nation. His story is a foundational text for anyone looking to build the next chapter of India's deep tech journey.
Connect with our Guest:
Dr Sridhar Mitta on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sridhar-mitta/
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Full Episode Transcript:
Prakash Mallya: (00:00) When it comes to examples of companies or people who have built core technology, whether it's chips, AI, robotics, and so on, we always turn to Silicon Valley. It is true, there are several companies who have risen from Silicon Valley to change the trajectory of technology, but I believe that there are enough examples of people from India who have made impact at a world stage.
(00:33) We have one such visionary in our midst today. He started his career at ECIL Hyderabad where he was involved in national projects across space and defense. He was the first employee of Wipro's IT business and later became the Global Technology Officer for Wipro and was instrumental in shaping Wipro's journey to become a global technology powerhouse. Not only that, he built a very strong R&D culture within Wipro, and he has been a role model for the rest of the industry to follow.
(01:12) Beyond that, he has also ventured into NextWealth entrepreneurs, which is the most recent venture he co-founded, which is a social cause providing gainful employment for graduates in small towns with a special focus on women. And across all the achievements that he has had for five decades of his experience in this industry, he remains as humble as he has ever been. So that is one of the most inspiring things you will know if you meet him, and I have interacted with him for a very long period of time, and that's why I say it. So, thank you and welcome to the show, Dr. Mitta. Welcome to Chai & Chips.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (01:54) Thank you.
Prakash Mallya: (01:55) I could not think of a better person to start our Chai & Chips journey with. So, thank you for doing it for us and thank you for being here.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (02:03) Thank you, Prakash.
Prakash Mallya: (02:04) So, let me wind the clock back to where it all started, right? We're talking about 1970s or so. And this is the start of the technology journey for India. You built Wipro during the foundational era of R&D. Maybe we could start with, what was the business environment like at that point in time? What are the challenges? What are the opportunities you saw?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (02:31) So let me start in the 1970s. See, the Indian computer industry has really started in 1971 when ECIL was established by Atomic Energy Commission. The idea was to design, develop, manufacture computers required for projects of national importance. More like real-time computers and all those things. So, in 1973, I joined them after completing my PhD in US and came back. So in a way, I can say that the Indian computer industry and my professional journey are fellow travelers.
(03:17) And at that time, the Indian economic scene was different than what we see today because the initial governments of India were following the socialistic pattern of economic development. So there was a domination of public sector with a very small role for private sector. So everything you have to do industrially has to be approved by government. You need a license to start, you need a license to scale, you need a license to locate, you need a license to get foreign exchange, which was meager, and everything was determined by the government.
(04:03) So at that point in time, the government was looking at the computer scene. So in India, the requirement of computers at that time was... the industry was nascent, and the computer requirements of data processing was met by IBM and ICL from US and UK with their obsolete machines and charging very heavily. And no technology inside the country. In 1977, the government mandated IBM to dilute their ownership of the Indian entity, which they refused and left. So thus, there was a big vacuum in the computer industry.
(04:52) So then what happened was the technology scene. As you know, in 1971 IBM PC came into picture. It created a movement which IBM did not foresee. So at that time, all the computers, whether it's mainframe or minicomputers, were proprietary in nature. So the development of all the subsystems—CPU, memory, controllers, peripherals, operating system, applications—were done by one company and offered. So they are proprietary. It also means you cannot move from one computer to another computer because there is no compatibility of them. So that's how the companies grew and made... IBM became bigger and bigger to $70 billion. Second company which was Digital was $7 billion and all others were small relatively.
(05:50) So when IBM PC came, the interesting feature is that they bought processor from Intel, operating system from Microsoft, peripherals from Shugart. So like that, they bought many subsystems from different vendors, integrated them and sold as IBM PC. So this is called horizontal systems. So IBM, in a way, has sown the seeds for movement from vertical computer proprietary computer systems to horizontal systems, kind of a situation.
(06:28) So the advantage of horizontal system is they are inexpensive, first, because we are getting best of bread subsystems from different vendors. You don't need very heavy capital to design all the systems. And from a customer point of view, they are not locked down to one particular customer or one vendor or one particular computer and all those things. So it gives flexibility for them. So this has created new set of computer companies which are relatively small all over the world. So this was the scene.
(07:06) So now enter Azim Premji. Azim Premji was studying in Stanford, and he has to return without finishing his degree because his father died. And he was asked to take over his business, which was Western India Vegetable Products Limited, making Vanaspati. But as a young man and a person with vision and mission, wanted to get into new technologies. So he was looking for a person who can spearhead this initiative for his company. So he found Ashok Narasimhan from Telco. So Ashok Narasimhan is a young, smart person who was working as a financial controller in Telco, IIM Calcutta MBA. So he met him in some occasion and told him, why don't you join Wipro? Name was changed to Wipro at that time.
(08:11) So he said, "Why should I join? I'm already doing very well in a large company, Telco was the number one company. So why should I join?" "No, no, no, we are thinking of getting into new technologies." So Ashok asked a question, "Are you getting into computers?" Because as a financial controller, he was using an IBM machine and he was familiar with what computers are and what it can do for the organizations. So Premji being smart, he told, "Yeah, we'll start if you join." So the deal is made.
(08:50) So Ashok joined Wipro and trying to set up things for getting into the new technology business. So that's the time Ashok was looking for somebody in technology area to spearhead this initiative of computer business or computer industry. So through his contacts, he found out about me in when I was working in ECIL Hyderabad. And his friend asked me, "Why don't you apply for Wipro?" Okay. I said, "Why should I apply? So I'm already doing very well. I'm in public sector. I'm doing very well. So I don't have any interest to do it." So he told, "Whether you join or not is not my problem, but you fill up this application, give it to me." So I filled up the application given and I was called for an interview by Ashok Narasimhan in Bangalore.
(09:55) So the first thing which struck me was, here is a young man of about 30 years old and general manager already and a smart guy and so it gave me enough reason to talk to him. So the discussion was, how do you start a computer company? What do you do? This one, that one and all those things. So I never had an intention of joining Wipro, I said, okay, thank you very much. And as I was going, he asked me, "When are you going back to Hyderabad?" I said, "Today evening." "So why don't you join us for lunch?" So we had a lunch with him. So then he asked the same questions again. So now I had to be... since there's no free lunch, so we have to answer those questions. And I told, this is what we do, one, two, three, four kind of situation.
(10:51) So then over, I thought it's all over. Then I was called for an interview in Bombay, Bhaktavar, where Wipro was located. So I was not interested, but anyway, I thought I will go and see what is there to... what are they going to offer me. So then I was surprised to see so many people. So one of them is Premji, one of them is Brigadier Malhotra, who was head of LRDE and retired. LRDE was supposed to be the largest employer of electronic engineers at that time in Bangalore.
(11:34) So there was a interview, I was not interested in the job, so things went off. And after a couple of other interviews, I was made an offer by Ashok Narasimhan to join Wipro. He said, "Hold on. First tell me, what is the position?" He said, "R&D manager." I told, "You must be joking. So I'm not a computer person. I did my PhD in control systems. I've not done any R&D. So I was more of a systems engineer or applications engineer which is putting systems for the ECIL together." I may not be the person. But he said, "No, no, we have done our research. So you're the right person."
(12:23) So then I told that, okay, is it microprocessor-based computer systems? He said, "Yes." Then I told him that I have three conditions if you have to join. So first question is location. It should be in Hyderabad or not south of Hyderabad. And why was that? Because I visited these places, I never found to be at home in any of those big cities. That included Bangalore? No, Bangalore, I said south of Hyderabad. It could be Bangalore, Chennai, Trivandrum, could be any place. Okay. So he said location we are not decided, we'll keep this in mind. The second question is, I need to have freedom to choose my team. He said, okay. Three is, who is going to be the CEO of this new company? So we're not decided. Unless you are there, I won't come. He smiled and said, okay. So the offer was made and I said, let me think about for 15 days and come back.
(13:42) So meanwhile, what was happening in ECIL, I was very happy doing projects for defense, space, message switching systems for Air Force, satellite tracking systems for Department of Space, all those such things. But I was following microprocessor development from my PhD days. Intel introduced first 4004, 8008, 8088, 8080, PC and all those things. So Intel announced a 16-bit microprocessor, 8086. So then I studied them and found to be more powerful than the so-called minicomputers which Wipro was developing using that generation technology. So I thought that's the right one to do. So I submitted a paper to ECIL management saying that we should use microprocessor technology for our future vision.
(14:41) So every one of them told that, "No, no, no, no, we are a minicomputer company. Microprocessors are toys." So I thought this is time for me to leave. And meanwhile, I also had some experience of using 8080 processor in some of the defense applications in ECIL itself. So I was hands on.
Prakash Mallya: (15:03) Can I ask you a question on that? What made you think the microprocessors that you were testing and talking about would be more important, a shift than pursuing minicomputers?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (15:15) No, no, no, it made a huge difference. See this is the cornerstone of horizontal systems, from a vertical integrated. True. And the small chip with so many thousands of transistors giving the power of a CPU where we used to make huge rack of electronics. Okay. So then memory, then the control and all. So it's not just microprocessor alone, it's microprocessor technology. So the ability to put in so many transistors in a small chip to do different functions, if you goes from CPU to controllers to other things. See, what is a controller? Controller is nothing but a microprocessor, a specific microprocessor for controlling a device. So this technology, I could foresee number one growing. Number two, it is giving an opportunity for new set of companies, especially in India when there is no installed base of computers and there is no investment to protect... It's a net new technology. And which year are you talking about here? I'm talking about 1973... no sorry... 1980. 1980. Okay. '73 I joined, '80 is this one.
(16:36) So the reason I thought I should join Wipro, I mean, Wipro is one number because of microprocessor technology. Second, they're starting with R&D rather than marketing or factory or other things. Okay. And the third thing is, I told Ashok, "Ashok, I'm thinking of doing something on my own later, two, three years later. So I don't want to join you." He told, "Sridhar, look, Wipro, you are starting from scratch. We are going to do things. So after two, three years, it may succeed, it may fail. If it succeeds, you know how to do things. If it fails, you know how not to do things." That's a good logic. Okay. So, so it's a good amount of discussions and logic to join Wipro.
Prakash Mallya: (17:33) And when you joined them, right, you mentioned three years or so you wanted to start something on your own, but it was still risky to join Wipro at that point in time. What made you shift from ECIL to them?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (17:49) Yeah, it was risky, but the question here is, there is a pull and a push. Push came because ECIL did not look into microprocessor technology. Pull, because of Wipro using microprocessor technology. Okay, that's the thing. And secondly, Wipro was looking at data processing segment. Whereas ECIL was looking at real-time segment.
Prakash Mallya: (18:18) So Dr. Mitta, for audience sake, in simple terms, how do you describe the segments?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (18:26) So I was telling about Bhabha Atomic Research Center, BARC. It was an Atomic Energy Commission because of which the advanced countries put restrictions on what they can import. So, in fact, even simple things like oscilloscopes were not allowed for them to be imported, with the result that BARC has started investing in developing these such things, both products and tools which are required for the atomic energy. Obviously, computers were required. So first they developed analog computers, then they developed digital computers using second-generation technology, which is transistors. It's a 12-bit. So you may ask why 12-bit? 12-bit is because at that time the sensors were having an accuracy of plus minus 1%. So if you convert into bits, it becomes 12 bits. So even if you have more, it is not going to help. So because the signals are coming from real-time, in real-time from other devices. So it was a 12-bit was done.
(19:35) So having developed it, to productionize and to do for other projects which is outside BARC, so they wanted a separate entity, legal entity. So they created ECIL, Electronics Corporation of India Limited, as a public sector under Department of Atomic Energy in Hyderabad. So that's how it has come. So initial customers were obviously BARC, Department of Space, and such customers and such projects. Whereas data processing is payroll, inventory control, and all this which is required by... The usual business. which is required by all the businesses. Businesses require.
Prakash Mallya: (20:23) So, segue I wanted to make is you're talking about microprocessors and the subsystems vertical to horizontal transition that was happening. You had to make a series of bets on which microprocessors to choose, which subsystems to choose. What principles did you employ to arrive at those decisions?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (20:47) Actually, I would say it's a common sense, but many people didn't do it. So first, me, Ashok Narasimhan, Premji sat together and said, "What are we going to do? What is this company going to do?" Build computers, microprocessor technology, fine. But what segment? Is it real-time? Is it academic and research? Or is it data processing? So the answer is quite obvious, data processing, because that is the biggest market, nascent market, and unmet needs are there. In India. We are talking only India. Correct.
(21:23) The second thing is, what processor you are going to use? So it could be 8-bit, it could be 16-bit, because 16-bit has just been announced as you know. So many people advised us saying that because you are a new computer company, you start with 8-bits, get some experience, then go to 16-bit. But I did not believe that because in technology, being ahead of time is always an advantage because we can kind of a leapfrog. It's an advantage rather than a disadvantage. So we said 16-bit.
(22:08) So the next question is, do you want to use a standard microprocessor or buy bit slice? In bit slice, you buy 4-bit ALUs, arithmetic logic units, stack them up into 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, whatever you want, and you have to create an architecture, instruction set, which is quite involved and difficult. So many people tried that and failed. And also in India, there are not many people who can do this one. At least in Wipro, we didn't have. So we said we'll go for a standard microprocessor.
(22:46) Then the question is whether it's Intel or Motorola. So before choosing the microprocessor, so we went me and Ashok Narasimhan went all around US, went to these companies, Intel, Motorola, Digital Research, IBM, HP, no Digital, all these companies to see what is happening. And we found that Intel gave the best option because they said at that time, "We have 8080, we have 8086, we are going to have a 32-bit machine which is compatible to the 16-bit machine. So the same software will run on the new processor also, and then we'll go further."
(23:35) Second, they said, "We have a development system. We have development tools. So if you're a computer company, you need development systems, development tools and all those things to design it." So they had a thing. Also, they had boards and subsystems which initially you can buy and start the development and then slowly change them one by one. So that flexibility was there. So all these things pointed to going with Intel, even though microprocessors from Motorola was supposed to be technologically better. So Intel advantage is compatibility, disadvantage is they have to be compatible to the previous generation. So it was a trade-off.
Prakash Mallya: (24:21) So for a company starting off, it made more sense to pursue Intel.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (24:27) So having chosen the Intel processor, next question is in terms of whether you need a standard bus. Bus is a mechanism in which different subsystems are stacked in a modular way so that you can remove one subsystem and put another subsystem without changing the other ones. It's a huge advantage. In fact, in ECIL, I suffered from not having a standard bus because every time you do something... So one is to design a bus, other is to look for a standard bus. There were no standards at that time, but Intel has come up with a Multibus, which is a internal standard by Intel, but they published all the definitions so that people can use it. So we chose Intel Multibus, which later became a IEEE standard.
(25:21) So after that, the issue is what kind of peripherals you want to use. So that's the time when Al Shugart defined and introduced a new set of computers called Winchester disk drives. They're hermetically sealed, requiring very... I mean, very environmental conditions. Whereas normal disk drives at that time used to be like a washing machine having 1 MB of capacity, removable disk drives. So you need dust-free, temperature, everything has to be controlled.
Prakash Mallya: (26:08) And we've come such a long way on storage.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (26:10) Whereas this one is very small, relatively small, 14.5 MB. And the environmental conditions are not severe. So we chose that. So then what happened was the all the subsystems hardware was straightforward and we did that. Actually, when you look back, there were several companies which came in India at that time. One company was started by Stanford graduates, very smart, very good guys. They didn't follow this simple logic. So they defined their own processor, they defined their own bus. They needed a lot of money which they didn't have. And they were behind kind of situation. And not only it helped us to put in a system very fast within a year, it helped us next 10 years as Intel was going with the new processors. So we are able to quickly adapt.
Prakash Mallya: (27:12) And which company are you talking about?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (27:14) PSI.
Prakash Mallya: (27:15) PSI.
Prakash Mallya: (27:17) And during that time, I'm sure you interacted with the industry visionaries on the Valley side. Can you recall any of the anecdotes which could be interesting for our audience?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (27:31) Yeah, it's interesting because we went and visited so many companies, US, UK, and all those things. So they were still in proprietary systems. They were so confident, they know everything and they are the right one. Just give one example.
(27:54) So Siemens was number one, and then Nixdorf was number two. So me and Ashok Sudha went and visited their company in Germany. Everything was fantastic, so big, kind of a situation. And they looked at... they showed us where they design computers, where they design PCBs, where they design housing, all those things. So we have these tools worth few million dollars. This is a thing, this is the connector, this is the... everything was so perfect. So we had a final meeting. And I asked the question saying that, what's your processor? 16-bit processor. How many MIPS it is? So many MIPS. And MIPS is? Million instructions per second.
(28:46) So then I was shocked. Their MIPS is less than 8086 MIPS. That means 8086 processor is better than that one. Okay. Then I said, what bus you use? "No, no, our own bus." Okay, fine. And each PCB was made with a shield, golden contacts and all those things. It's a piece of art. And PCB is printed circuit board. So all those things. Then I asked a question, what is your operating system? Our proprietary operating system.
(29:34) Then why should somebody buy your computer if I have the higher performance with a lower cost based on microprocessor? "No, no, no, no, Dr. Mitta, we... this is a secret." I said, what is the secret? "We have COMET." I said, what is this COMET? "This is a set of software programs which we have written, covers all possible things which a business needs - accounts payable, accounts receivable, this one, all those things. And we spent so many man-years, so much of money building it, so much of time, nobody can replicate this. So that's our secret."
(30:17) Then I asked him a question. So, what language you developed? He said, "BASIC." So I was... I mean, laughing to myself. And then I asked him, what database you are using? "No, no, our proprietary database." So the net-net is everything is proprietary, it's very expensive, fantastic company, fantastic computer, but price is 10 times more. Very high. So after coming out, I told this company will not survive more than four years. A startup company from India going to Germany and looking at the obvious, and they, in that business, they could not see it. See it. So it went bankrupt. Then it got acquired by... Acquired by Siemens.
(31:16) So, that's the kind of thing we used to... similarly another company in UK, similar situation. So there are many people who don't see successful companies don't see what is coming next. Around the corner. The corner next. Same story repeats again and again and again.
Prakash Mallya: (31:37) It is known to everyone, but it's so hard to beat what they call entropy. So you talked about hardware elements, can you elaborate more on how you chose the software elements?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (31:51) See the choice of hardware was very straightforward. Okay. What is the processor, bus, and all those things. When it came to the operating system, there are two options. One is you develop everything from scratch, it takes three, four years and it's very complex. Second option is to buy an operating system from a vendor. But at that time, there were only two operating systems available. So one was from Microsoft, MS-DOS or PC-DOS. The second was CPM from Digital Research. So these were developed for 8-bit personal computer machines. But they are not suitable or does not use all the facilities of 16-bit 8086. So there's no things. Secondly, the usage in India is different, data processing versus personal computer.
(32:46) So we were looking for licensing any operating system if it exists. And we started looking and went around the United States. We were lucky to find a company called Sentinel Computers. It was a startup company. The background is Cincinnati, they have Cincinnati Milacron, which is the world's largest numerical control company. So they were using computers, Motorola computers for their own these things. So one day they decided we should get into commercial data processing. So they formed a separate business unit, hired people and started making and selling those machines. Obviously, they don't know how to sell commercial machines being a NC company. So the board decided to close it. So the people who are working didn't have any other option to get out and they started this company called Sentinel Computers.
(33:54) At that time, there were no VCs and all those things, especially in Ohio. So then they wanted to build a computer which are application-specific. So they quickly zeroed on Intel, where they bought all the hardware: CPU, memory, disk controller, communication controller, all those things, including power supply and rack. So put together a computer in no time. So it so happened that there was a company called Tominy, few meters away from Sentinel. And that company was started by a guy by name Tominy. Tominy used to work for Cincom. Cincom is Cincinnati Computers. They produced one of the world's top two databases. One was IBM, other is Cincom Total. And it was very well received by the industry.
(34:54) So the Tominy guy told, "We are doing for mainframes, why don't you do for smaller computers like IBM Series/1?" The board vetoed the proposal saying that, "We are a mainframe company, why should we worry about these small companies, I mean small computers?" So he left and started this company for operating system combined with database, running on a smaller mini-type computers, IBM Series/1 type. So it suited them. So Sentinel people met Tominy and negotiated and they licensed it. The problem is the original is written for Series/1, this is for Intel 8086. So they have to re- ... kind of a... what you call, transfer that to the Intel processor. So they bought an Intel development system and all those things using PL/1 language. So they quickly made an operating system which is.
Prakash Mallya: (36:02) So they had to recompile it?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (36:03) Recompile, I mean rewrite, recompile. Kind of situation. It is called porting. So they ported from IBM Series/1 to Intel 8086 processor. And the greatest thing is, number one, it is multi-user, multi-tasking, and database built-in, and a lot of tools to develop software on-line for the applications. So they're all comes in a small package which needs least memory, kind of a situation. So they started using that one. And now they found another vendor who will develop application, application such as accounts payable, receivable and all those things, it will run on this. So Sentinel was targeting small enterprises with this combination.
(36:58) So we said we are interested in licensing the operating system. So will you give it to us? He said, "No, why should I give it to you? You guys will copy and run away." I said, if I'm copying and run away, why will I come to you? In fact, the other way, if you license it to us, we will protect you if anybody copies in India. So we are an ethical company. So we want to use you, use your operating system and then build on that an operating system which we will use for commercial data processing.
(37:34) So we said this is the opportunity for you. So after a lot of discussion, they agreed. And to give the source code and the technology, if any. So then we agreed, we signed the contract. So we have to pay money for them in foreign exchange. As I told you, the foreign exchange is scarce in India. And we went to the government and said we want to pay this company this much of money, please allow us. So we are paying actually, but only foreign exchange is the permission from the government. They said, "Why are you coming and asking? Nobody has asked this before. Everybody is copying, you copy it." I said, "No. If you copy, the industry will not come up. So the software industry builds on not copying." So if you want to build an industry, you should pay for it.
(38:35) The second point was that there is nothing defined in the import-export trade policy of India, what is software. So how can you pay for something that is not defined? So there was some good people in the department, they came up with a solution, called calling it as a "design and drawings." So we are allowed to import "design and drawings of an operating system" for so many thousand dollars. It is the first time in India government giving permission to import software legally by paying money. Incredible story.
(39:26) So then when we bought this one, we had a problem. So the software will come in... at that time 8-inch diskettes, some 100 disks. But when you brought those things, we declared at the customs. The customs officer looked at it, "What? What is this? I don't know." And so much of value. "No, no, no, no, I will confiscate it." So he confiscated and took a big nail and put them through it. My God. Tied it just like in government office they do it, this, "Now you go and appeal. I don't want to take any decision." But fortunately, Ashok... sorry, Lee Cole, who is the Vice President of International for Sentinel was coming, he brought another set of disks with him so that we can start working on that. And meanwhile, to justify that we paid properly, we have to make a paper tape... sorry, a hard copy of the operating system because it's design and drawings, it cannot be in diskettes which they don't know what it is. So I then put a bundle it, so this is what we imported.
(40:46) So that's the level of technology government and all those things which has to be done and when you are doing for first time, you go through all these things.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (40:55) So that's how we got the operating system. So the first computer was called Wipro Series 86. And when did you launch it? We launched it in 1981, February, in the Computer Society of India Annual Convention. The CSI Annual Convention originally started as a scientific academic get-together. And slowly, it has reached a stage where companies which are coming announce their products or these things in that conference. So in 1980, I joined in May. So by December, we have one prototype using bought-out subsystems from Intel and operating system from them. Only one system, only one terminal, and we are... have to take a decision to whether announce it in February '81 or wait until next year. As in which time you lose close to a year. More than a year.
(42:06) So if you have to announce a product, we have to be ready in next two months. We don't have drawings, we don't have spares, we don't have anything. And what do we do? So we decided to announce anyway. So we quickly put together the system. In fact, we didn't have a second terminal. And how can you announce a computer multi-terminal with one terminal? So we had to go around the country and find out one company in Chennai had a similar terminals. So we begged them, borrowed those two terminals for the announcement in Delhi. And we have to change the firmware of that terminals. We didn't have a prom programmer. So all kinds of things. Challenges. Finally, when we had the prototype, the day before the conference, the machine didn't work. So we didn't have diagrams, power supply didn't work. We didn't have the diagrams. So our hardware manager was a power supply expert. So he did some things and said, "Let me go to temple and come." The last resort. He went to Malai Mandir in Delhi, prayed and came, and it started working. And next day, we took it and put it there. And the computer was so small compared to rooms worth of... full of these things. It was a desktop, one like a drawers. The old computer was in the drawer. So if you come and see, it looks like a table, office table.
(44:03) So when we demonstrated this in the thing, people said, "Where is your computer?" "It's there." "No, I don't see computer, I see only table." "No, no, no, you guys are cheating." So next day, what we did is open the computer, put backside to the front so that people can... something really there is something. And we are able to run programs. And we challenged the people, "You come with your programs, we'll run it." And Ashok Narasimhan made the announcement, formal announcement in CSI. That was a breath of fresh air. And it was so nice, the computer was so good and presentation was so good, that Wipro from an unknown entity became a known entity in one day because of this thing.
Prakash Mallya: (44:52) And how many years of work did it take you to get to that point?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (44:55) It's one... less than a year. Okay. I told you, I joined in May. I went to US for the first time in August. We came back, then two people went to Sentinel to get all the technology transfer, all those things.
Prakash Mallya: (45:10) So very quick turnaround to create and stand up a new system.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (45:16) That's because of the decisions we made in the beginning.
Prakash Mallya: (45:19) Yeah. The choices you made. On different subsystems components. Yeah. Wonderful, fascinating story.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (45:27) So that's the beginning of microprocessor-based minicomputer system, kind of a situation. I forgot to tell you one more thing, why location wise. See the government of India specifies where you should set up your company. And every year, they announce industrially backward areas where you are allowed to set up the company, not anywhere you like if you have to get a license. So at that year, at that time, they specified three places. One is Aurangabad in Maharashtra, in fact, which is close to Wipro's Vanaspati factory. Second was Patancheru near Hyderabad, where there's nothing but green fields. Third one was Mysore. Mysore is a developed, decent city.
(46:24) So I said, north of Hyderabad is not allowed. Hyderabad, Patancheru is not good. Obviously, choice is Mysore. So Wipro came to Mysore first as per the government conditions. Having come to Mysore for factory, we went... we came to Bangalore for R&D and marketing and all those things. Right. So many people think that Wipro came to Bangalore because of good weather, Indian Institute of Science, all kinds of public sector, talent and all these things. No. We came because of government in Mysore for factory and because of which we came to Bangalore.
Prakash Mallya: (47:09) That's a good clarification for our audience on how Bangalore came to become the Silicon Valley of India, the way it is today. Yeah, that was the start of it.
(47:21) So, you talked about the entire journey of starting out as a hardware business and I've had the good fortune of selling some of the systems built by you and your team when I started my career in Wipro, and I must say it was a very proud moment on hardware built in India at that point in time which we used to sell. Wipro Supergenius machines was one of the systems I remember, which came later.
(47:50) So, fast forward a few years. So the first 20 years or so, the focus was to build design capabilities within Wipro R&D. And the next years onwards, it would be more oriented towards building global scale capabilities and making Wipro the name what it is today. So how did you go about it? What were your learnings through that journey?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (48:20) So when government was thinking of liberalizing the entry of foreign companies. See so far, the Indian market was a closed market. So the competition was between Indian companies. So as long as you are better than another Indian company, you're all right. Correct. So we never faced any global competition. So 1990, government said, we are going to allow foreign companies to come in with certain conditions like 60% owned by foreign company, 40% owned by this one. So it sent shockwaves to Indian companies because, number one, they are large companies, global companies. They have technology, they have money, they have marketing, they have all the abilities. Only thing they may lack is how do you market in India and support in India, kind of a situation. So that is the general thing.
(49:20) So as a question, as a head of R&D, what is the impact of this company, this decision if government takes, as and when it takes, on R&D? So it dawned on us. So if door is open for you to... for somebody to come inside, it's also open for you to get out. But on a global scale, we are a tiny company. So we started looking in why the companies will be interested in Wipro. What is that unique thing which we can offer?
(50:02) So that's when the thing hit us because Unix was becoming the main-line operating system moving from engineering workstations to commercial systems. There was a lot of demand for Unix talent. And we were lucky to have AT&T Unix source and then having implemented on 386 and many other machines, we had a talent which is well-versed with Unix. So we started offering Unix-based services to global companies which there was a global shortage of Unix talent.
(50:41) But we asked ourselves, why should that US company give it to us? Because we didn't want to send people from here to US and do the work like the body shopping. But we want to do work from India. So there are three impediments. First thing is how do they trust Indian company? The second one is what is your infrastructure? Third one is what is the quality and timeliness you are going to give. So these are the three questions anybody will ask. So we started thinking on that.
(51:25) So first in terms of trusting, so we have to project our credentials already which has come in terms of we are a trustworthy company. Second is we have to have quality standards which said that not only meets quality, but I am going to give in time. So we looked around and said, are there any international quality standards which we can follow, which the customer looks at it and we look at it, agree on it. There were no standards, software standards at that time. So then we thought, why don't we use ISO 9000, which is actually for factory. In fact, Wipro factory got ISO 9000 accreditation. It was meant for factory. So we took that factory certification... not certification, factory standards and how to implement for software.
(52:30) Probably we are the first company in the world to use ISO 9000 for software. So when the potential customers come here and we show that we have this quality system, we say what we do, we do what we say. These are all the tools we have, these are all the information about how we are developing and we can share this with you online so that you don't have to get a shock saying that I'm not doing it, I'm not quality and all those things. It was an easy sell because none of the companies they didn't have any standards. I mean, they may have internal things, but they don't have international international standards.
(53:13) And then Carnegie Mellon University came up with CMM level 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So ISO 9000 software is equivalent to level three of CMM. So we got ourselves upgraded for level four and we had training, all these people from US will come for accreditation. And we were... kind of a, first time we got the approval for level five in India. At that time, there were only three companies in the world which got it. One is IBM, Motorola, and some other company. And they got for specific project or specific division. Whereas in our case, we got level five for the whole company. So that was another unique thing.
(54:08) So in terms of infrastructure, we had a problem to guarantee the thing. So the communication was a problem, internet. It was controlled by Department of Telecommunications. So at that time, we used to have a head of Department of Electronics, Mr. Vittal, who saw this problem and gave a very fantastic solution. He said, okay, DoT doesn't want to lose control because government control is required for communication. He started another government agency called STPI where he kept an antenna to receive directly satellite communication, still owned by government. And from that satellite, you can get connections. So he circumvented all the things which was required.
(55:02) So then in terms of power and all those things, we had a generators in the basement, we have a this one storing of diesel required for next 30 days. All kinds of things we did it. So most important thing was the communication. So when we did all these things, our idea is to set up a center in India which mimics the center of the customer. Okay. So same machines, same tools, same intercom system, everything. So we called it India Development Center, which later was called ODC and now we are calling them as GCCs. So the first time we did before anybody else did that. For India development centers.
(55:53) So when these things were happening, there is another requirement which has come from Indian market. So when defense needed computers, they needed rugged computers. Rugged computers means they have to withstand high temperatures, low temperatures, shock, vibration, and electromagnetic radiations and all those things which takes a lot of time. And then they have to develop application software. So what we suggested is we'll give a commercial version of the machine where you can develop the software in parallel, we'll do the computer's ruggedization. So we did that.
(56:37) So that was used for all the defense missile projects. So Dr. Kalam was in charge of DLRL. So he came up with this initiative called Integrated Guided Missile Systems. So several missiles, including Akash which came into recently. Uh, we given test systems, rugged test systems for that. Okay, okay. Similarly, NAL was working on computational fluid dynamics. So they needed huge computing resource which was difficult to get it. So there was a machine, Cray, in Delhi where they can't go and use it. Even if they get a time, they get for 10 minutes, 15 minutes like that. And NAL, which is the spearheading this work, they had very obsolete CDC machine which takes hours and hours to do one iteration.
(57:42) So one day, the scientist from NAL walked into my room and said that I need a parallel computer. I said we don't do parallel computers. We do commercial computers. "No, no, no, you take your CPU, put second CPU, third CPU, fourth CPU." "We don't have software." "No, no, I will write the software." So, this guy what he had done is, he has taken the computational fluid dynamics problem and cut it into four pieces. Each piece running on one, one CPU simultaneously and giving me the answer. It is domain decomposition technique which they use. So I was a little kind of skeptical whether it will work and what he says... Because this guy, big beard and all those things, he murmurs, we don't even understand what he says. A typical scientist. But I could establish a common wavelength.
(58:56) So I told his name is Dr. Sinha. "Sinha, we will do one thing. I will not sell the computer. I will put up a computer in my lab. You come and do all the things and prove it works, then I will sell you." So he liked it. So he came, did that one. So one processor performance X, four processor 4X. Okay. Fantastic. So true scalability for that particular set of problems. And that performance, 4X, is better than his mainframe. He said that if I buy this machine, I have a machine for 24x7 for myself. Why should I go and beg time on these things? Yeah. So that's how we sold first machine, it was called Flow Solver to NAL.
(59:45) So he was so happy and so greedy. I want 16 processors. So 16 processors. More than 16, it don't work. Then we had... this was first 8086. Then we have put 386, 16 processors, Mark II. Then we had 860, put that one. So he was constantly getting highest performance at lowest cost and beating even the performance of Cray in his own lab. So like that, we did parallel computers for several people. So all these projects of national importance which people don't get it from outside India or even not allowed to get it from India, or it takes time to develop, we are able to do it very silently without kind of a situation, because of which Wipro R&D received Award of Excellence for Electronics for five continuous years.
(1:00:50) So this was the contribution to the Indian side. Then on the other side, we told you ability to do software development from India for US companies, things. So when initially it worked out, the India development concept, we found that it's a big opportunity. Because we were... customer is happy because his cost is one-third. Wipro is happy because it's making 40% net profit. Government was happy, we are getting foreign exchange. Okay. Employees were happy, they are working on the latest and current technology.
(1:01:31) So we saw, we thought it's a good opportunity. So we should form a separate business unit. R&D, which was a cost center in Wipro, became a profit center and called Global R&D. While doing this work, two other interesting things happened. One was when I am designing hardware for US companies, so initially it is integrated circuits, VLSI, LSIs. So then we have gate arrays. Then we need to make specific VLSI... For our audience, if you can explain VLSI in simple terms. Very large integrated circuits. Okay. So which has a lot of transistors and a lot of functionality in a single chip.
(1:02:23) Then we reached a stage where we have to do more performance in the chips. We have FPGAs, Field Programmable Gate Arrays. It is like a computer, pre-fabricated and give the performance by programming the layer. So hardware one layer is fixed, one layer is programmable. So then it became obvious saying that hardware designer has to be VLSI designers if they have to continue to work with companies, even though there was no pressure on Indian side. But to get a VLSI experience, it is a tough choice. You need an engineering workstation which costs a crore of rupees. We need a VLSI tool which costs one crore of rupees. Okay. And then we need people to be trained, it costs one crore.
(1:03:23) So the total capital budget of Wipro during that year was 4 crores, and I wanted 3 crores only for this project. And which year was that? This is about 1990, early 90s. So I didn't even go and ask for it because I know the answer. So we have to come with a smart way to do it. So then I found a company which is spun out of... not spun out of, people working in VLSI Technology, US, came out to India to develop chips. They have the idea, they have the experience, but they don't have money. They don't have computer, they don't have workstation, they don't have anything.
(1:04:03) So I went to them and told that, "Look, I will get you Sun workstation to do this. If you get the VLSI tools, legal version, on my machine, you can use one shift, I can use another shift." So they... fantastic. So then I went to our finance CFO, told him I need a one crore computer, Sun computer. How do you make it happen? And I explained to him why I want it. He told that, "No problem. See, we are distributors for Sun Microsystems. If I get one thing, it adds to the... I mean the overall sales of Wipro. And we get a discount, obviously." So he collected all the money, unused money and allowed me to buy a Sun workstation. So I have a workstation, I have a VLSI tools. Now I need training.
(1:05:07) We found another manager in VLSI Technology, US, they used to design customer-specific chips, ASICs. Okay. Application-specific integrated circuit. So he was actually defining, I mean designing the subsystems for Apple computers. And he needs system designers, not chip designers. See, these two are two different things. One is the system knowledge, other is a chip knowledge. So very few people were available at that time who had both these things. So I told this gentleman saying that I have system designers who design high... high performance, high speed systems. 386, Pentium and all things. Whereas we don't know how to design chips, tools. So we'll send two of us, two of our engineers. You train them for three months or six months and use them for six months. Don't have to pay anything. I don't pay anything, you don't pay me anything because getting foreign exchange was a problem.
(1:06:18) So when these two guys went there in month or month and a half, they learned the tool. They started designing the chips which were first-time success. Okay. So they liked it so much, saying that, okay, now that we are designing, you come back, you go to another team. So I built a team of VLSI engineers over time. And today, Wipro has, or by the time I left, Wipro has 5,000 chip designers, which is the largest ensemble of chip designers in the world, other than Intel, AMD and all those things. Fantastic. So that's one thing we built.
(1:06:59) The other thing I would like to state is a situation which has come in communication industry, telecom, datacom industry. So once I went to a customer, Cisco, and said that, how are we doing? He said, "You are fine, but I don't... I'm not happy with you." I said, why are you not happy? "Because you want to choose the work you want to do. You want to do only development, but not testing." I said, it's not true. We'll do both for you. We are an important customer for us. I came back and asked the R&D manager, why you are not doing testing for Cisco? "No sir, they want the same people who develop the product, also want to test it. This is different department, that is different department. In between, there is a lot of time wasted. So I can't keep my resources idle. And also they are very, very scarce resource globally." So I could see the reason, but also I looked at the body language and said, we are not interested in testing.
(1:08:06) So then I went to Nortel and asked them, so what do you do for testing? "Yeah, it's something which you don't want to do, because we develop a product, we do the testing, that's fine. But I have to test my products with my competition product, which I don't like. So it's a specific need of a communication industry of interoperability testing. Right. So here is something which is big, which customers don't want to do it, and we can do it. It's a huge opportunity. It's a significant opportunity. Correct. So I talked to many communication CTOs. And they all told the same thing.
(1:08:49) So then I wanted to have a separate business unit called Interop Unit and asked for $2 million budget. So in our annual budget meeting, so Premji asked me, okay, you want $2 million. Okay, how much return you will give me? "Sir, I don't know." When are you going to give it? "I don't know." So then how can I give money? So typical VC type questions. Then I got an idea. I said that, okay, you don't invest, I will invest. So Premji said, "What do you mean you invest?" "So you have approved the budget of Global R&D. So I will fund them." Okay. From your own existing budget. Your budget. Okay. Existing resource, assets. So he said, okay, do it.
(1:09:39) So then what happened was I got a person who was in factory, called production engineering team head, whose business is to break R&D systems. So he gets a lot of pleasure in making these systems fail. So I got that guy and saying, "You are in charge of this division. I'll give you $1 million budget to you. You can do anything you want, you can use any of the R&D resources, you can go and attend conferences, courses, everything. I will get you first customer. Second year, you have to give me $1 million profit." He said, okay.
(1:10:18) I got first customer, Lucent Microsystems. And we are testing. Because we are developing also, we are testing. So what is the price for this one? So it's 80% of the development cost. Fine. Second year, I said it should be same. Why? No, we are doing same work. Third year I said, you have to pay 20% more. Why? "We are specialists." So we started doing interop testing for all the global top eight datacom and telecom companies. That business today is $1 billion. Wow. Highest margin, lowest attrition. Okay. And easy to get talent. It has come a long way.
(1:11:12) What I find fascinating is as you explained how you went about it, the entrepreneurial way of thinking on fixing the hardware infrastructure need, software need, and training all came together by your new or creative way of thinking.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:11:32) Yeah, it can be called innovation, it can be called entrepreneurship or intrapreneurship. It's basically, I come from a business family. Right. Okay. So I know the concepts of profit, loss, inventory, what to be done when I was 10 years old, 15 years old. But I did not get into business. Didn't want to get into business, family business. But unlike many CTOs who are very much better than me or kind of a situation, I had this commercial thing from beginning. Right from the beginning. Because of which I am able to kind of a see what is going to happen. And a few other things I did in Wipro is customer is right, customer is first, which means R&D is there to serve the customer, not customer should buy what R&D makes.All senior people in Wipro has to go and meet customers. Any customer problem has to be addressed immediately. No permission required.
(1:12:39) So that culture of customer first. Even a new prospect comes, the first visit is to my office, CTO office. Okay. So I had to tell them this is what I am doing, this is what I'm going to do. These are all the things, take him to the lab, show the prototypes, and then next step is to go to factory, they see the things being produced. Whereas at that time, very few companies had this kind of facilities, assets.
Prakash Mallya: (1:13:09) And another observation as I've read about Wipro R&D evolution is your close collaboration with academic institutions, specifically Indian Institute of Science. And that is a theme that one sees even in Silicon Valley. So can you talk through what came about it? Was it by chance or was it deliberate? What made you collaborate with them?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:13:33) See, initially when Wipro was started, one of the conditions to get license is to have Indian technology or kind of a scenario. Just about the time I what I joined. So Wipro decided to fund a project to Indian Institute of Science where a committee of professors were formed in C-CEDT, Center for Electronic and Design Technology, to advise Wipro on the architecture. So by the time I joined, it was already there and I didn't have an office or a house, so I used to sit in Indian Institute of Science in one of the professor's cabins. And many people used to think I'm a professor there.
(1:14:27) So we had a lot of discussions. So whatever we decided, I told you on this process, they were also part of that kind of a situation. So in a way, Wipro was started in Institute of Science campus. So we are the first. They used to have a program called CSIC, Center for Scientific and Industrial Collaboration, something like that. So we went through that one. In subsequently, they were developing some parallel processing technologies which we tried to use it. So that's another project. Then we had a professor from Electrical Engineering department who developed a software for grid optimization. So when you keep a new point in a grid, everything changes. So mainframes used to be used abroad. And obviously, we can't do that one. So he developed this software using the minicomputer type. But user interface was bad and it's only professor can use it, nobody can use it, all those things. So you have to take that code and use good user interface, graphic terminals, color terminals and all those things, you do with this, do that, test scenario. So then we commercialized that software, paid royalty to Indian Institute of Science.
(1:15:53) Then at a given time, people were expecting Mac operating systems to become a standard after Unix. Because many people asked after Unix what? So Mac was the supposed to be the answer. So we gave a project to IIT Bombay to develop Mac-like operating system there. Similarly, graphics were coming in terms of usage and all that. So we gave a project to IIT Kanpur to do that project for us. So we did have a reasonable amount, I won't say large amount, but reasonable amount of interactions with the thing. But I was associated with the universities very much. I used to be a visitor to IIT Kanpur to select professors and their promotions for two years. I used to be in selection committee of Indian Institute of Science professors and these things. So we maintained good connections.
Prakash Mallya: (1:16:48) That's something that even companies in deep tech can take away because it can be such a such a good model to collaborate with academic institutions.
(1:17:00) So we talked about the initial days of Wipro and how you evolved it as a Wipro Global R&D. And it's a good time to take a break and do a quick rapid fire which will be more of fun questions that Dr. Mitta may not have answered in the past. Are you ready for it, Dr. Mitta?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:17:20) Yes.
Prakash Mallya: (1:17:21) Okay. Okay, Dr. Mitta. A set of quick questions for you. Starting this one. What's one memory from your hometown? I believe you grew up in Chittoor in Andhra Pradesh that still brings a smile to your face?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:17:37) The moment you talk about Chittoor, we remember the elementary school, the day I went to school, high school, friends, picnics, all those things. But one thing I remember about specifically about Chittoor is its round roads. See, near Chittoor, we had a lot of hillocks with the green cover. And they were concentric walkable, motorable roads. That's why it's called round roads. The history is that the collector of Chittoor, British, had a problem. His wife was suffering from TB and there was no medicine for TB at that time other than having a fresh air and other things. So he constructed it. So all of us in Chittoor, every evening, I'm sorry, every Sunday evening, our group will go for a walk, either 2 mile, 4 mile, 6 mile depending on that. And just outside the round roads, we had a big tank, tank bund, then green fields, then a temple. So it's a lot of nice memories about Chittoor.
Prakash Mallya: (1:18:51) If you were stuck in a desert island and if you are allowed one gadget to take with you, what will you take and why?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:19:02) I'll take a satellite phone. Why? See, when I am in desert, in a desert, in an island, so first thing is communication. So we can't get anything else. The only satellite phone has the ability to communicate. Second is it is also gives the coordinates for somebody to reach where you can ask for help. Good answer.
Prakash Mallya: (1:19:27) You have been in chips, so this is chip-specific question. If chips were to give you one superpower, what would you like?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:19:38) No, chips give me the power. No, I want artificial intelligence with humanness. Wow. Good answer. Value, ethics, these things.
Prakash Mallya: (1:19:56) Tell us one quirky or fun fact about Dr. Mitta that not many people know.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:20:04) I love American football. Wow. Do you watch it? I watch it. So when I was in US as a student, I lived in an apartment next to the football ground. A lot of noise. So even if you go to library, a lot of noise. I said, instead of being outside, why don't you be inside? So I went inside. And initially, it looked like a brutal game. In subsequently, I started liking it. So by the time the season is over, I had two televisions in my house to watch two games simultaneously. And even when I came to India, I kept track of which side is winning, what is everything, even though you are not getting running commentaries or this one, but I keep following to the news. So obviously my favorite teams, the college team, Oklahoma State University Cowboys and it's so happens the Dallas Cowboys are also my favorite.
Prakash Mallya: (1:21:12) Very cool. So outside of technology, what's one hobby that takes a lot of your time and something you're passionate about?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:21:22) I'm not a games person, spend a lot of time. I spend whenever I get time reading more about technology and update myself. But one thing I do is in the earlier days, I used to play bridge. So now I do Sudoku regularly.
Prakash Mallya: (1:21:43) So last question. A movie is getting made about your life. Who would you cast in that movie to play your role and why?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:21:55) I would say Tom Hanks. The reason is I'm an introvert. So he has acted in many films where the character was important, but they know physical exhibition of might and fight.
Prakash Mallya: (1:22:20) Awesome. Great set of answers. I'm sure audience got to hear from Dr. Mitta and learn more about you that most people wouldn't know. So let me get back to where we dropped off. You talked about Wipro R&D's journey. And let me fast forward to now, right? A lot of deep tech is about building a very strong ecosystem. So for example, if you're looking at hardware or semiconductor, it will require chip design, system design, material science, so many other skills to be available. And in India, though we have a lot of engineering skills, deep tech skills are scarce. So based on your experience of leading Wipro R&D team to great heights, what advice would you have, what practical steps could industry, academic institutions, and policy advisors take in order to build a very strong deep tech ecosystem?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:23:25) See let me start with an experience I had when I was in United States between year '98, 2000. There was a study conducted by Stanford University. The question is, why is Silicon Valley great? Can you create another Silicon Valley elsewhere in the world? So it is a interdepartmental research for two years. And they presented their findings and in fact was also written as a book. So I could attend that one. They said that Silicon Valley is great because of so many things coming together. And the most important thing is the ecosystem of Silicon Valley, which attracts the best talent from all over the world. It gives them the freedom and it gives the all the other things which are required, especially the risk capital and tolerance to failures. So the keyword is ecosystem.
(1:24:31) And they said that Silicon Valley cannot be recreated elsewhere in the world. In fact, that answers the some of the questions here. Deep tech, why Silicon Valley, why not in Los Angeles? Same United States, same California, same sort of people. So the issue is one of building the ecosystem rather than looking only at people, only at technology, only at infrastructure, government policies, all of them has to come together. So I explained to you what are all the constraints we had at that time when you started it. And in spite of that, several IT companies, including Wipro has come and became successful, became a global company. But today, things are different. For example, Intel wanted to produce 386 chips in India after its peak is over so that they still demand. They said there is no way it can be done in India. They came and then that's when it went to Israel.
(1:26:23) So to say that what is required is very obvious saying that we need all the things of an ecosystem to be built. Fortunately, today most of it is happening in India, not to the extent we would like to have it. So we are going to see soon some of the successes like what happens in Silicon Valley here.
Prakash Mallya: (1:26:51) And another element of deep tech's success in any country would be IP on what you create. And there also, I feel Wipro Global R&D created a lot of IP that got used in some of the initiatives you drove. So any learnings from what your journey people can take away, entrepreneurs can take away on building IP that can really last the existence and growth of the company.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:27:25) See, there are two types of IP. One is work of mind: patents, trademarks and all those things which are protected by law. More of innovation and other things. So great things need IP to protect so that you can make investment and then recoup the things. But 99% of IPs are useless or not monetizable. So that's one aspect.
(1:27:55) The second thing is in semiconductor industry, the IP means reusability. You develop a hardware module or a software thing which is well-defined and they can be reused multiple times in multiple chips. For example, IEEE 1394 is a standard of IEEE, which is for the input-output. So one can take the standard and implement it so that any chip which is made where they need 1394 or a PC or a this one, you can use this without developing from scratch. So that is the semiconductor IPs. These are the two things.
(1:28:39) But coming back to now, so there are different aspects of IP which are to be done. One is a strong production of IP legally, which today we have in India. Second is the implementation. So how do you implement it so that if there is a breach happens, it should be... it should not take tens of years, it should be done. So that means the IP legal system, judicial system, should understand how to adjudicate in IP cases. We need lawyers, we need this one which is takes time to develop. So which is already happening. And the IP these officers which grant this one, they should have officers who knows how to evaluate and grant IP. So again, it's a question of ecosystem of patent ecosystem coming into the country.
Prakash Mallya: (1:29:37) And you believe progress is happening on all those fronts that you talked about?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:29:39) Yes, yes, certainly it's happening.
Prakash Mallya: (1:29:43) And a follow-on question would be, looking back at your entrepreneurial journey, especially in the R&D space, what advice would you have for an entrepreneur today who is venturing into the deep tech, semiconductors, AI, robotics, those kinds of areas out of India?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:30:04) I have one advice. Typically what happens, technical people who are into deep tech, they worry so much about technology. They look into that and keep developing it. But what is more important than technology is its usage. Okay. And applying technology is, I would say, more important than development of, invention of technology. It is required, but not that one. This is a lesson I got from my professor in Oklahoma State University. I went to US to do my PhD in computers and I did not get financial aid. So another department gave me financial aid, which is systems engineering department, which I said no. This a professor, Indian professor who used to take interest in me. I told, "This is what happened." He said, "Don't be stupid. What is more important is how to apply technology, not to learn technology or develop technology." It is required but not that one.
(1:31:20) So that was etched in my mind, which I see every time. Intel spends billion dollars, makes 386 chip. But to make it a PC, you need IBM, you need Microsoft, you need, say Digital Research, you need Taiwanese companies. So many people are investing so much of money not by Intel, but by others, which is 100 times, 1000 times bigger than that. Am I right? Yeah. So the difference between a successful technology company and a not so successful is besides technology, how do I use this technology? What are the application areas? Either you do yourself or work with partners. Then only is it useful... technology by itself is no use.
Prakash Mallya: (1:32:06) Yeah. That's such a powerful advice and even in my experience, it has held true for several industries which have developed products, but unless there is customers using it, the technology on its own does not make a lot of sense. Yeah, agree. So coming to today, you have been involved, you co-founded NextWealth entrepreneurs. The focus is social impact. Tell us a bit more about it. Why you started it? Where you are today? What's... what do you think about it looking ahead?
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:32:43) Yeah, when I completed 60 years of age and personally didn't have much responsibilities, so I thought it's time for me to give back something to the society. Okay. So I was fortunate to work with my co-founder Anand Talwai and S.R. Gopalan who is no more, to arrive at what is the best way to do by our team. So we are technologists, we are in computers, so we know the market, we know all those things. So how do you use this knowledge, computer... sorry, contacts to do social good.
(1:33:26) So several candidates came into picture. One is in education, other is in healthcare, employment, green energy, these kind of items. And if you take education, there are huge problems, unsolved problems. Very massive. And they're controlled by government, regulations and all those things. So our ability to add value may be very infinitely small. On the other hand, if you take employment, if you provide employment, the person who gets employment get money in hand, that person can spend on education, spend on healthcare and spend on other things. So we felt employment is more important than other things, not to say others are not required.
(1:34:21) So the moment you say employment, we think of using the computer industry experience of doing remotely things. So how we moved from R&D to global R&D. So we are working here. If work can come from United States to Bangalore, 5,000 miles away, why can't work go from Bangalore to Salem which is 200 miles away? There is a thought for which provided you have internet. So employment became the primary criteria of creating social impact. Second is to whom? Could be graduates, could be PhDs, could be engineers, it could be uneducated people, whatever it is. But the maximum impact we thought we can create when we can employ graduates, kind of a situation, because these people spent four years or three years of time, money, the college has spent, the government has spent money and all these things. After graduation, if they don't have a job, it's useless. In fact, he will be in a worse position than uneducated.
(1:35:36) So next thing is where? So it could be in a city, it could be in a village, it could be in a town and all those things. Because of our IT background and internet needs and all things, we said it should be in small towns, not villages, but not cities because city already has so many other opportunities and making people move from small town to city is creating more problems. So we said cities. Within that, 60% of the graduates coming out are women. And the women after education and all those things, they're not allowed to go out of their small town to take up opportunities even if they get it. So women became important. Plus, the fact that women's money in women's hand is spent much more effectively than men. So these are the reasons based on which the purpose was defined as providing gainful employment to graduates in small towns focusing on women. So that's what was the beginning and that's what we do now.
Prakash Mallya: (1:36:47) Wonderful.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:36:48) Today we have 11 centers, 5,000 people are employed. We are a for-profit company, though it's a social venture. And we are profitable from day one. For us, profit is not the motive. So for us, employment is the motive. To get employment, you need to get revenues. To get revenues, you get profits, from revenues, you get profits. Whereas a normal company, you get profits, or you want to get profits for which you need revenues, for which you have to get people. So, very, very interesting.
Prakash Mallya: (1:37:26) And you are an absolute inspiration, Dr. Mitta. You have done a variety of different things in your life and continuing to do it. I'm sure the next generation listening in or watching this episode would take a lot away from this journey of yours which is been a pleasure to talk to you. And we are coming close to the end of the show, Dr. Mitta. So it's been such an inspiring episode for me, and I'm sure for the audience as well. So there is one question that I plan to ask all the guests. It is this one that India's ambition in semiconductors and deep tech is not only about domestic growth, it's about our place in global technology. And if you were to fast forward 10-15 years, what's the most profound way you hope India's success in building this ecosystem will have in the global world order, whether it's in terms of impact it creates or whether it's in terms of human capability improvement.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:38:32) See, from a technologist point of view, I see the line between hardware and software has blurred. Okay. And it is blurred between a chip and a system. Okay. And with artificial intelligence and generative AI coming into picture, so these chips become the delivery mechanism for certain specific tasks or these things. Today we are sitting here and trying to see build a ecosystem to make semiconductors, it's important. But can you make semiconductors which are different from the way others do it? Where the solutions are not specific to high, rich people, but it can be used for so many other people. Because today technology is not inclusive, not kind of everybody who needs it are not getting it. So to make this technology available to everybody in a way they can use it, they can afford it, it has an impact, and at the same time it doesn't have a negative impact.
(1:39:57) So the opportunities are unlimited. Okay. Where India comes into picture is we have this ability to find out what those problems are because we have 1.5 billion people. We know, we have more problems than we can solve. And applying to them and then propagating to the globe will be a great opportunity. As C.K. Prahalad told, you don't have to search for problems in India. We have a million problems. You can choose any problem and solve it.
Prakash Mallya: (1:40:37) Thank you, Dr. Mitta. Thank you all for listening in. Please follow us on Chai & Chips, the channels that you listen to this podcast. We look forward to bringing back several such inspiring episodes in future. Thank you.
Dr. Sridhar Mitta: (1:40:51) Thank you, Prakash.
Prakash Mallya: (1:40:53) Thank you.
(Outro Music Ends) (1:41:43)