Guest: Rose Schooler, Board member – Arm and former Intel executive.
Episode Summary:
"How do you unleash India's talent on the world's biggest problems, not just India's problems?"
This is the visionary question at the heart of my latest Chai & Chips episode with Rose Schooler.
For decades, India has been a powerhouse of engineering talent. But the next chapter isn't just about supplying talent—it's about becoming a global hub of innovation that solves critical challenges for the world. How do we make that leap?
In this conversation, Rose draws from her rewarding career at Intel and her current role on the board of Arm to lay out a powerful roadmap.
YouTube episode link:
Key Insights:
My conversation with Rose Schooler offers a masterclass in strategy, leadership, and the practical realities of building a world-class technology ecosystem.
Introduction: India's Moment of Transformation
The episode is framed by a powerful, forward-looking question: How does India unleash its immense talent on the world's biggest problems, not just its own? Rose Schooler argues that India is at an inflection point with the potential to transition from a vital talent provider to a global leader in technological innovation and governance.
1. India's Evolution - From Follower to Leader
Rose provides a unique historical perspective on India's journey within the global tech landscape.
Past: Initially viewed as a hub for "resource augmentation" and "engineering resource allocation," where global companies offshored projects to leverage local talent.
Present: A profound shift has occurred. India is now recognized as a "digital infrastructure leader," pioneering large-scale solutions like digital ID (Aadhaar) and payment systems (UPI). The rise of homegrown unicorns (Flipkart) and giants (Reliance Jio) signals a new era of innovation.
The Takeaway: India's narrative has fundamentally changed from a service provider to a market that creates and leads.
2. The Three Non-Negotiables for a Thriving Ecosystem
When asked what it would take for India to build a robust semiconductor ecosystem, Rose identified three critical, non-negotiable pillars:
Talent as the Foundation: India’s engineering talent is its greatest asset. With over 1.5 million engineering graduates annually and a significant presence in global tech leadership, the raw material is abundant.
Innovation and Intellectual Property (IP): The ecosystem must move beyond implementation to creation. This requires a focused drive on R&D to generate and crucially, protect foundational IP. This "secret sauce" is what creates true differentiation and long-term value.
Execution is Everything: In a powerful statement, Rose declares, "Strategy without execution is just PowerPoint." Vision, capital, and policy are meaningless without the relentless, consistent execution to bring them to life. This was a key lesson from her time at Intel, where even great ideas failed without a disciplined follow-through.
3. Navigating the Geopolitical Chessboard
Geopolitics is no longer a background factor. It is a primary driver of the semiconductor industry.
The China+1 Opportunity: Global pressures, tariff chaos, and a strategic need for supply chain diversification are creating a massive opportunity for India.
The Apple Example: Apple's decision to move manufacturing to India is a landmark event. Rose emphasizes that this should be viewed not as an endpoint (an assembly line) but as a launchpad for a full-stack ecosystem, from design and IP to advanced production.
Government's Role: While government support (like the Chips Act in the US or Semiconductor Mission in India) is crucial for creating incentives, companies should not solely rely on it. A balanced approach that leverages private capital and market forces is more resilient.
4. Winning the "Talent War" - Making Engineering Cool Again
One of the most pressing challenges is attracting the next generation of bright minds to the foundational work of semiconductors.
The AI "Brain Drain": The "giant, glowing light" of AI is pulling talent away from the core engineering that makes it possible. This is a global talent war and semiconductors risk being perceived as less glamorous.
The Solution: Rose argues for a multi-pronged approach:
Change the Narrative: Make engineering "cool" again by connecting it to real-world impact—solving problems in healthcare, climate, and society.
Rethink Education: Create more accessible pathways into the industry, such as hands-on boot camps and trade-like roles, rather than relying solely on traditional engineering degrees.
Make it a Requirement: In a bold statement, she suggests that engineering should become a foundational skill in early education, positioning India to lead globally.
5. Masterclass in Leadership - Lessons from the Trenches
Rose shared deeply personal and powerful stories that serve as invaluable lessons for any professional.
Failure is the Best Teacher: Her most profound career learnings came not from her successes, but from her failures—like receiving a "horrible" management review. These moments forced introspection and growth, teaching her to "slow down to speed up" and bring her team along.
Act and Decide: From her early days in a fab facing a crisis alone, she learned to act decisively. This was reinforced by a mentor's advice: "When all else fails, decide." Indecision is often more damaging than a wrong decision.
Asking for Help is a Strength: In a moment of vulnerability, she admitted that her desire to be the "ultimate problem-solver" prevented her from asking for help, jeopardizing a major project. She learned that "asking for help is a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness," and is the true essence of collaboration.
Conclusion: India’s Visionary Future
Rose concludes with an inspiring vision for India's future. As the world's largest democracy with a deep talent pool, India has the opportunity to step into a global leadership void. By leveraging its unique strengths, India can lead not only in technology but also in shaping global governance for AI, combating misinformation, and advancing human capability on a global scale.
Connect with our Guest:
Rose Schooler on LinkedIn: RoseMary Schooler | LinkedIn
Rose on X: Rose Schooler (@RoseSchooler) / X
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Episode Transcript
Intro: [00:00:00] I, I think we would be naive if we didn't say it was one of the most powerful forces at play right now. So there's a perfect example of an opportunity for India, for India specific products with Apple, that could initiate unique IP, create impetus for semiconductor development in that region. Strategy without execution is PowerPoint. But if you don't have the execution at that patient capital and that consistent policy and that commitment to the end state, if you don't have the execution, you will fail. I mean, semiconductors are freaking cool.
Prakash: [00:51:17] Welcome to Chai and Chips Show. This is a show where we interview experts around the world to share insights on what will it take to build an India ecosystem on semiconductors and deep tech. So you are one of the experts today.
Rose: [01:07:07] Oh, wow. Thank you for having me first and foremost, uh, and thank you for the uh, uh, very lovely description of expert. I guess 33 years in the industry, I get I you get to call me something, right?
Prakash: [01:23:25] Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah. For the benefit of our viewers, I wanted to give a quick run of introduction for you, Rose, hope that's okay?
Rose: [01:34:25] That's totally fine.
Prakash: [01:35:36] Rose Schooler is 30 year industry veteran and she started her career at Intel. She has spent over three decades, 33 years at Intel over variety of different roles, most recently being corporate VP of Data Center and AI business. VP of IoT business, Intel startup initiatives, she led that at one point in time and many other roles. And um, she serves as an independent director on the board of ARM and Densify. She is a fantastic coach and mentor, one of the mentees being yours truly. She also runs a podcast. It's called Maestro Mindset. She was talking about it and it's about how do you build career, successful careers, especially for middle management and executives. Am I right, Rose?
Rose: [02:23:56] That's right. Leadership and management,with a focus on creating a culture that, uh, you would want to not only, uh, succeed but thrive in.
Prakash: [02:35:46] Rather than jumping into questions on semiconductors, chip and deep tech, let me start with lightning round. The first question, what's one weird or surprising fact about Rose that most people won't know?
Rose: [02:50:06] back in the day, and even on occasion, now, I may bust out and rap.
Prakash: [03:01:54] Oh, really? Wow.
Rose: [03:04:47] Yep.
Prakash: [03:05:54] Okay.
Rose: [03:06:40] I I I've been known to be able to rap a bit.
Prakash: [03:11:43] My god.
Rose: [03:12:00] And and not my own raps, but I can, I can repeat some old school raps pretty well.
Prakash: [03:17:03] Nice. We should have a different show.
Rose: [03:20:13] If you give me a little prep, I, you know, I might even perform for you someday. And by the way, our friend Jay Kirkland is also a closet rapper.
Prakash: [03:30:22] Second question. An emoji that best captures your frame of mind most times?
Rose: [03:36:26] Do you know that one with the smiley face with the hearts that are flying around it? Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, that like, you are hard pressed to find me angry, sad, depressed, stressed these days. I am knock on wood. My desk is wood, so I'm going to use that. Uh, I'm living a pretty brilliant life right now. So, I am exceptionally happy and I think that emoji is a good representation of that happiness.
Prakash: [04:07:44] That's so wonderfully said. Yeah. Being grateful is it, that's all it takes for a happy life.
Rose: [04:14:52] Every day, my friend, I wake up and pinch myself and and thank whatever God you may pray to that uh, I have been blessed with this life.
Prakash: [04:25:22] What's the most unusual or adventurous thing you have ever done? Besides rapping.
Rose: [04:30:20] That's a good one. That's a good one. Back in the day in my 20s, I bungee jumped off of a crane in Mexico. So that was a long time ago. So I also give you a more recent one. Um, we went last year to Iceland for our 30th wedding anniversary, my husband and I. And we did an ice cave hike, which was super fun. But it was pretty late in the season. And the thing that makes it pretty adventurous is that a week later one of the ice caves collapsed and someone died. Yeah. So at the time I didn't think it was terribly adventurous. Yeah. a week after, I thought it was pretty darn adventurous.
Prakash: [05:18:43] Oh, wow. Yeah. That calls into question how quickly things can go bad.
Rose: [05:26:01] Yep. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And I think it was just, you know, late in the season, the temperatures were starting to melt the ice a fair amount and it collapsed.
Prakash: [05:35:57] Yeah. Next one. What's a song that always gets you dancing? No matter where you are.
Rose: [05:41:48] Oh, there's so many. Um, I could go with like dancing Queen by Abba. Oh, that's a good one. To Word Up by Cameo. Um, to any old hip hop song, like Rapper's Delight, by Sugarhill Gang. It doesn't take me, take much to get me dancing. I love to dance.
Prakash: [06:07:40] Okay, last one. What's the first thing that comes to mind when I say India?
Rose: [06:13:30] I'm gonna give you two answers on this one. Uh, the first thing I would say is talent. And I think because of the nature of this podcast, most listeners would think I meant engineering talent, and I do. But I also will add to that talent comment, by reflecting on the question that you just asked about dancing. Because one of the talents that I did not realize was so pervasive in India was dancing.
Prakash: [06:49:10] That's true.
Rose: [06:50:33] Now, I've seen enough Bollywood to know that there's some good very skilled dancers in India. So don't get me wrong. Yeah. But I will tell a story of our last face to face sales conference, Prakash. I believe we met in Malta for the Asia Pac conference. Yeah. And they busted out some Indian music. And the dance floor erupted.
Prakash: [07:20:25] Yeah.
Rose: [07:20:57] And I still watched those videos today because I I was so blown away from, one, the dance floor is usually like filled with women. And in this case, we were in the minority and you guys just like took over the dance floor. And so again, to summarize, talent, not only technical, Yeah. but also the arts.
Prakash: [07:43:58] Yes, that's true.
Rose: [07:46:17] I will never forget that my friend, as long as I live. I was blown away. You dudes were cutting the rug, man. It was awesome.
Prakash: [07:55:54] All right. So, we are done with lightning round. So let me start with it's, it's, you talked about talent, India having engineering talent and uh, also dancing talent. But let me wind it back to you spent a long time at Intel, right? And now you're on the board of Arm and Densify. You've had very extensive experience and you have a global vantage point. So, the thing I wanted to ask you is, from your lens, where was India perceived few years back? How is it perceived now? What changes do you see and what makes you come to that conclusion?
Rose: [08:42:30] Sure. if I go back to I would say what would be my first introduction to India, uh, when I was at Intel. Uh, the things that come to mind were resource augmentation, engineering resource allocation, building up sites to again, bring the engineering. and I keep using that word because again, that was the lens. It was like, how do I use the local resource to augment or offshore projects or opportunities within a company that could have been HQ'd or headquartered someplace else in the globe? The thing that I think has really shifted and and by the way, I did that. You know, I did that. I did some of my first IP development for wireless in India. I had created IP, some blocks, IP capability in blocks there. but having said that, as I kind of look in how things evolved, what I saw was a transition from outsource resource augmentation, engineering to really a digital infrastructure leader. One that created a set of capabilities around whether it be digital IT, ID or payment systems, storage and access technologies. And I think no matter the example, what it showed was India's ability to lead in tech. And then you saw, you know, again, you would go back and you'd look at some of the big global service providers that are based in India, the Tatas of the world, as an example. And then I'll never forget Prakash, and I think the conversation was with you. And you said, Rose, we've got this, you know, unicorn that's popping up called Flipkart. Yeah. And we've got this, telco and cloud provider called Reliance. So it's really that shift to summarize, it's really that shift from resource provider and engineering augmentation mentality to a real tech leader. And I think the shift has been profound.
Prakash: [11:13:58] Yeah. We have come a long way. I would agree with that. And a follow on question in that regard would be, you've seen ecosystems being built. This show is all about sharing insights on how do we build strong ecosystems. So, from where India is today, if you were to build a very robust ecosystem, what are some of the non-negotiables? What are two or three things that we absolutely have to do right?
Rose: [11:44:49] Yeah, I think that's a great question, and I think we hit some of it, at the beginning when I was talking about talent in the speed round, right? Um, India has tremendous talent. And you know, I can say that easily based on experience, but I wanted to bring some data to the conversation. So I went and I started doing some research and I found some super interesting factoids if you will. 10, greater than 10% of the Fortune 500 companies have CEOs of India descent. There's over a million and a half engineering grads annually. Over 70, approximately 75% of the H1B visas in the U. S. annually come from India. And number three in the world, you know, I mentioned the Flipkart example, but number three in the world in unicorn startups. So there's, there's a tremendous amount of what I believe is the foundational asset, which is talent. Uh, we just talked about transitioning from augmentation and talent availability to true innovation, um, and R& D. So in along with that talent, you need to have the inner drive to create, innovate and, and focus and prioritize research and development. And with that, when you create the innovation, you need to generate and protect the IP that comes with it. So I think that's super critical. From an ecosystem, this is a generally an ecosystem question, but if you're focusing now, I'm going to kind of auger in a little bit more on semiconductors, but relationships with tool providers and process providers to then take the talent with the R& D and create the IP, but then take it one step further into product. Have channel partnerships to get products to market, um, and then the robust supply chains that come with being a silicon provider. Now, one thing that we didn't touch on and this I think this really, really increases the complexity. If you want to be what we used to call at Intel an IDM, an integrated device manufacturer, then you have to have your own process technology and capability. And I think that raises the bar substantially because you have material management and wafers and gases and chemicals and masks and other types of tools. You have to have country infrastructure on clean power and water. And all of that needs to provide an ability to scale at the unit demands required to be successful in a silicon and semiconductor market. And as you know, Prakash, you know, to build a factory today, a leading edge fab costs, you know, 25, 30 billion dollars. I think TSMC spent on two nanometer in Taiwan. So it comes with a tremendous amount of capital expense if you choose to go that next step and manufacture your own silicon in country.
Prakash: [15:24:08] Capital expense is one of the most important things, but as you highlighted, there are several other aspects including talent, which would be important for India to consider as we build a robust chip or deep tech ecosystem.
Rose: [15:39:46] Absolutely. And just one more comment on kind of the the manufacturing attributes of that semiconductor ecosystem and capability. If you look at the VC community traditionally in India, my perspective, and please correct me if you see this differently, is that it's been a lot of B2C and a lot of SaaS companies. When you talk about that transition into semiconductors, you also, do you have the investment community behind you? Is there incentive to keep the expertise in company? Is there government focus on creating a semiconductor capability in country. You know, you've seen a bunch of that most recently, like the example I would give is in the US with the CHIPS Act. And what's your startup community look like? I I know you have a few, but is that enough to really drive what I'd call IP and design all the way out through manufacturing and product delivery, or at what point do you decide that you not, you don't want to be a device manufacturer? And then it just requires that you leverage relationships and create relationships with the folks like Samsung and TSMC.
Prakash: [16:56:49] Yeah, agree. But there's one aspect you mentioned, I wanted to dig into, right? IP, intellectual property. Yes, India has, like you mentioned as well, huge amount of talent. One in five chip designers in the world today are based in India, but most of them work for multinational companies that have footprint in India, including folks like Intel, like you talked about. But my question is, the foundational IP is still very lean in India. So how important do you believe IP is if you were to build a robust ecosystem? And are there strengths and opportunities that India can leverage on based on its capabilities to build IP?
Rose: [17:38:29] Yeah, I personally, and I, I'd be super interested to hear your thoughts on this, you know, with all your history in the industry. But I think IP is foundational. Uh, and when I say that, I think we all know, at least if you're in this semiconductor industry, that there's what I would call readily available IP. You know, some IO blocks, etc, that you can easily buy from standard IP providers, where there isn't a tremendous amount of value add, but looking at where you're leading in innovation and R& D, how can you create some differentiated IP blocks that allow you to have, you know, what we used to call it Prakash as your secret sauce, your differentiation within that product. We said this, the talent's there, the intent's there, but how do you bring that execution together? So I've built my foundational IP, which is critical. How do I bring government, private enterprises, and universities together to really create momentum, around what I would call a pretty strategic in-country goal? I don't know, what are your thoughts on this one?
Prakash: [19:03:13] The part that you mentioned about collaboration across the industry, academic institutions, VCs, in fact, the entire ecosystem is so critical. and from everything I've read on the valley side, there are so many companies, Sun Microsystems long time back, Google a little more recently, and Tesla far more recently, are companies that either got built in campus or had a very close collaboration with academia as they built their IP. So,absolutely. in fact, I was having the conversation with Dr. Mittal who is the first employee of Wipro's IT business, set up R&D for Wipro and he talked about how the initial part of Wipro's journey was very close collaboration with Indian Institute of Science, one of the premier research and R&D institutions in India. So there is immense logic in having a very close collaboration across the industry and academic institutions. A follow on question, Rose, would be, you talked about foundational IP and from your position as an independent board member of Arm and industry experience across Intel, do you believe that India's access to some of the core IP, whether it's x86, or whether it's ARM, or RISC-V, or having building such IP in the country would be important? Do you see successes, or do you see case studies across the world where India can learn from?
Rose: [20:40:48] Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I think generally for the IP created in country to start in from a position where there is a key industry that's critical to India's infrastructure, commerce, etc. is a great place to kind of build capability and have differentiation that you know will be consumed within your country. When you start talking about the core CPU decision, I often think that that's one that's industry determined, going, very similar to the comment that I just gave around what IP could be created in, in India for India, and you've seen China do some of that, right? You've seen China do a lot of that. Yeah.but getting back to the core IP discussion and decision, the cores, and you know this, and I'm sure many of your listeners do as well, the cores required for data center are at a different performance, MIPS per watt per dollar metric than a core that you would use for an edge IoT device, as an example. Yeah. So I think first you have to look at the availability based on your market requirements for performance, power, and price point. Right. Um, and then I think you drive your IP decision from there. And an example that I would give you, and I don't know if you saw this, but recently, the Malaysian government secured a strategic licensing, licensing, excuse me, partnership with Arm. And I would imagine you would see more of these deals. And for obvious reasons, I am a fan of the Arm portfolio, as you noted, I'm on the board and I should make that super clear. But I don't see why you wouldn't see more of these opportunities in country. Leveraging different cores, including the Arm core, like we saw in Malaysia.
Prakash: [22:50:52] So I have a follow on question on the Malaysia collaboration that you talked about on Arm. What is that? What, what, what makes it unique?
Rose: [23:03:57] I think and again, I, I will share what has been obviously shared in the news, but it's generically a strategic licensing partnership. So access to the ARM core, which I think as I noted earlier, I don't see why we wouldn't see more of that internationally. Again, just to be very, very clear, I am not sharing any confidential information. I am unaware of other deals. This is Rose's opinion that it would make a lot of sense that if a country wants to create products for India, made in India, or for China, made in China, and, you know, the list goes on and on, that that type of model wouldn't continue.
Prakash: [23:56:58] Now, the other aspect about semiconductors and semiconductors are in news a lot now. you and I are very close to the industry, but for even the other folks, geopolitics is so much intertwined with semiconductors. So companies make decisions on which countries or which regions to take a bet on from an R&D, design, manufacturing point of view, from a chip making point of view. And it applies for India as well. There is China plus one strategy of diversification that many companies are pursuing today. So how important does geopolitics as a criteria play in the minds or in the decision making of executives as they make a call on which regions to invest in?
Rose: [24:50:49] Wow. I think we would be naive if we didn't say it was one of the most powerful forces at play right now. As I mentioned earlier, in the prior administration in the US, it was the the genesis and the force behind the CHIPS Act. People realized that having access to semiconductors is a national asset these days. Andrelying on other nations for that capability creates risk. So, you know there's definitely a need for countries to own those critical assets, and semis is one of them. So I think that's been, I think that's very clear, a non controversial statement. Having said that, I do think that there are areas that it needs to be targeted. I really, really despise the idea of an isolationist economy. And let me expand on that. I'm a super simple person, Prakash. I like things is boiled down as simply as possible. Global means big TAM. Right. Isolated/nationalist equals small TAM. If I'm the CEO of a company, why would I pick a small TAM? So, especially if you're going to go into the manufacturing of devices because of the capital expense, you need the scale, the economies of scale to offset the investment of that capital. So again, if I go back to yes, it's critical. I do believe it should be targeted. And let me just give you an example of what I mean by that. If there's critical assets around defense, if there's critical capabilities around even some of the what I'd call high risk telecommunications infrastructure might be something you'd want to think about because bad actors could play a pretty nasty role in your telecommunications infrastructure. There may be opportunities for unique IP, public, private, university relationships that allows the incubation and the creation of that semiconductor capability. Another instance of geopolitics and I think we've both seen this play out. I it's probably been about 30 days ago now. But I don't think it's a big secret. There's a lot of tariff chaos that's still lingering between the US and many, many of our partner nations. It's having an impact to companies' bottom lines. It's causing a rerouting of global supply chains and trade relations and in some cases, it's damaging decades of goodwill. And the example that I think we probably both saw for Prakash was the request to get manufacturing out of China. Yeah. Apple says, great. I'll move it to India. So there's a perfect example of an opportunity for India for India specific products with Apple that could initiate unique IP, create impetus for semiconductor development in that region. Yes, the move initially is device manufacturing, but that doesn't preclude extending the relationship to more semiconductor and IP development in the future.
Prakash: [28:54:33] So you start somewhere and build from there?
Rose: [28:57:48] Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And when I look at India, you know, we talked about the design talent, 20% of the design talent is in India. Huge R&D centers. Yeah. If people are using the U. S. as an example, looking to get out of China, India is a perfect landing spot. There's increased government focus as I understand. I'm sure you know more about Semcon India than I do. But the government focus is starting to kick up. And it creates a great diplomatic hedge.
Prakash: [29:33:04] Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think a lot has happened, a lot more can happen in the semiconductor and deep tech space in India, but yeah, there are a lot of actions in progress, Rose. I agree to that. And I would ask you another related question in that space is, as you look at the geopolitics play out and I believe investment as you build the ecosystem of global players in India, whether it's global capability centers, design centers, you name it, is very critical. So what are two or three critical factors that India needs to consistently demonstrate for us to attract investment from these global semiconductor or deep tech players?
Rose: [30:21:49] Yeah and let me just tell you my point of reference is just kind of watching some of the degradation of that in the US right now. I think it's really important to have predictable, trusted policy and IP protection. Yeah, I'm in agreement with that. If people are going to bring investment money into a country, they want to make sure that the, whatever is benefited out of that investment can be guaranteed in the form of return, that there isn't, you know, some kind of government funny business that puts that return at risk. So I think that predictable, trusted policy and IP protection. So if I go to India, or if a company starts in India, either scenario, and there's IP generation there, can I make sure that that IP is protected? That would be another thing. And then finally, like how do you make sure you're continuing to retain design talent? Yeah and then build talent, if you go down the manufacturing avenue in process technology, packaging, and manufacturing ecosystems.
Prakash: [31:39:27] And you talked about across building capability on top of the talent that you have, building manufacturing capability. The Apple example of moving from China to India being one of them. And associated tools and uh, IP that is coming through to build more and more capable systems on our own as India. The other aspect of it would be what could we learn from similar ecosystems around the world? And that's where again, you have had a global vantage point. You can see Silicon Valley right close to your backyard. Across Valley, Israel, Taiwan, Korea, China, they've had great examples of ecosystem building with long term in mind. So are there broad themes that you saw are valuable for India? There are some cautionary tales that you would like to highlight as we build the ecosystem for deep tech and semiconductors.
Rose: [32:43:40] Sure. I'm going to give you one of my favorite sayings Prakash and it's strategy without execution is PowerPoint.
Prakash: [32:54:14] That's true.
Rose: [32:55:00] Or, you know, whatever tool you use, if you're at Amazon, maybe it's a Word document. And what I mean by that is you can have the best vision. You can have private, public and university partnerships aligned. You can have the capital, but if you don't have the execution at that patient capital and that consistent policy and that commitment to the end state, if you don't have the execution, you will fail. And, you know, I hate to use these examples, but I will. Like, if you look at outsourcing our fab capability at Intel, as an example, creating that foundry business that Pat was very passionate about. Right. You know that it wasn't the first time that strategy had been attempted. Yeah. So where did we fall down previously? Execution. So, you know, we, we take the second or third swing at it. And I think the industry is still waiting for that proof of execution. So, I can't say it enough that you can have the vision, you can have the capital, you can have the policy, but if you don't have the execution, it doesn't, nothing matters. And you can see a company like NVIDIA now that's executing the daylights out of everybody and just continuing to build better, more powerful, more available products, ecosystems, relationships, and industries. I'm a big fan of ecosystems. I think especially in the case where we're talking about semiconductors, the idea of the large capital expenditures, it's really a hard business to go into and immediately jump into the manufacturing. So if you're not going to do that, you have to be a fan of ecosystems. And with that, you got to have win-win relationships. You've got to have collaboration if you're not going to have vertical integration. And with the complexity of the semiconductor market, a balanced approach can really accelerate that progress and drive innovation by enabling a full ecosystem. I mean, you look at some of the most valuable companies in the world right now, whether it be, a Microsoft or whether it be an NVIDIA, they have really strong robust ecosystems. NVIDIA is not an IDM. NVIDIA has driven their success through in partnership with TSMC. And then the final thing that I would probably put forward as a cautionary tale is as I've watched the ebbs and flows of the CHIPS Act, it's great to engage, but not to solely rely on government funding. You remember back in the day Prakash, I would say it was I don't know, 2021, when everybody started rattling their swords if you will around the CHIPS Act. and we went all in at Intel. When I say we, I mean at Intel. We went all in. Meaning we were investing in some shape or form of manufacturing capability in the US, in Europe, in Asia. Some of which was partially funded by us. By leveraging a lot of the cash that we had built and the rest was built upon the CHIPS Act. Administrations change, the future of it becomes very tenuous, and then go back to point one. If you can't execute, your strategy will fail. So it's great to have the engagement and the support, but I wouldn't solely rely on government funding as a path to success.
Prakash: [37:20:25] That's a great insight. And across all the points you made, I'm reminded of Andy Grove time and again, execution is the only thing that matters.
Rose: [37:32:37] That's right. That's right.
Prakash: [37:34:39] Some of the themes I took away, based on your response was execution matters, absolutely. If you have a vision and long term in mind, it would be zero if you can't execute. Collaboration is critical, patient capital is critical, and the patient capital part is definitely an area where India can do better in my view. And you also talked about how relying purely on government may not be the best strategy in all cases. So we came a long way talking about semiconductor ecosystem, what it takes, foundational IP and why IP is important, and several other insights from your side, Rose. Let me switch gears. One of the mission for Chai and Chips also is to inspire the next generation in India to take on or build for semiconductor and deep tech. So you have spent your entire life in this industry. And if you look now ahead, 10, 15, 20 years, what excites you the most about this industry? Why would or why should a person just fresh off the college or early stage of his or her career join this industry?
Rose: [38:54:13] Wow. This is a tough one.And what I might say might be a, a just a tish, a tad controversial, but it might be one of the biggest challenges in a successful execution. So let me just, let me just give you some data there's 100, based on a McKinsey study in 2022, there's about 120,000 engineering degrees annually in semiconductor related fields, but only about a percent and a half of them actually enter that industry. In the United States, they have a substantial number of engineering students and only a small fraction enter the semiconductor market as an example. In Taiwan, as the data indicated, there's about 65,000 engineering degrees with about 2,000 to 2,500 entering semi. So it's a better percentage. Higher than most countries, and that's with somebody like TSMC in country. And they're even seeing a growing talent gap. So let's extrapolate that maybe to India. If there's 600,000 in semi-related engineering degrees, let's say that 6,000 in semi-design roles. So it's still pretty low alignment and you can see a shortage of what I would call aligned talent. So you're kind of starting in a very, very difficult position. So then the question is, which I think your question was, but I just wanted to kind of create the foundation, which is how do you pivot more of that talented engineering talent towards semis when there's this giant glowing light on the hill called AI?
Prakash: [41:12:07] That's true.
Rose: [41:13:58] And I have to tell you, I'm not sure I know the answer to that question. University targeted programs are one thing that I would throw out as an idea. Maybe changing requirements such that some of the roles are more trade like versus engineering degreed in approach. Boot camps, hands on training and then everybody needs, everybody needs that kind of star on the hill. So what's the vision that says by joining, going down this path of semiconductors, I have an opportunity to win. Win in terms of a growing career. And and maybe in hindsight as we talk through this, that might be part of the sales pitch if you will. That you know, because of it's a blossoming opportunity in India, there's opportunities quicker for leadership roles. So I just think that you've got to really think through the types of skills and how you expand the pool. Reference my trade like versus degreed like careers, hands on training and boot camps early in high school, and bring out the cool factor. I mean, semiconductors are freaking cool. It's a lot of science and a lot of art. And when you think about the densities and the process technology, I think we have lost the insight and the visibility to how incredibly cool semiconductors are, and we need to bring that back.
Prakash: [43:10:39] It is very interesting, Rose, and you would agree with what I say is semiconductors were boring for a long period of time until AI came along. And then it's boom. Suddenly everybody's talking semiconductors, but it is always one of the most magical things human beings have invented.
Rose: [43:29:43] Oh, it's incredible. When I was coming out of school, a really, really, really long time ago, they were like, they were like the cool kid on the block. Semis were super cool. And then they became kind of matter of fact, and you began to take them for granted. And now I don't know, why don't we start by pointing to the fact that and this changes almost every day these days, but one of the top two, if not the top valued company in the world is a semiconductor company.
Prakash: [44:04:40] And that brings me to you alluded to you joining the industry few decades back. What made you join semiconductors at that time?
Rose: [44:17:34] And Prakash, I don't, I think you saw this presentation. I, I used to give it actually quite often at Intel in the industry and it was, you know, basically Steel Town to Silicon Valley. So you know my background is I grew up in a really, really small town. I think the population now is about 8,000 people. Maybe it was 35,000 at the top end when the steel industry was really thriving. But you know, I went to college to be a doctor. I had every intention to be a doctor. And I took a few biology classes and I was just bored. And I thought, what's something that's up and coming and cool? And I stumbled into Intel. I didn't stumble into semiconductors. I didn't even know what a semiconductor was. I stumbled into Intel. And I thought the products they created and what they were doing in terms of improving life and society was just mind boggling. So that's what was really inviting to me. It was innovative. It had an impact. It had a ton of opportunity because there were only 27,000 people at the company at the time. So that, that's what and and then probably the least significant, but also worth noting is that they were on the West coast and I was cold and I didn't want to live on the East coast anymore. So it was personally very interesting to get me out of the cold weather. So that was probably the last, the straw that broke the camel's back if you will.
Prakash: [46:08:04] Yeah. Yeah. You're so right that when you're people, especially starting off in your career, you would like to join somewhere where you make an impact and somewhere where the surface area of luck, as they call it, is very large. So you can make a difference. and you can learn from it. Yeah. So from there, you grew across variety of different leadership roles, and now you're on the board of ARM. And from your journey, and this is also one of the core reasons why we are doing this podcast is to inspire diversity in tech. So, from your lens, what more can be done to promote women across tech, um, elevate them to leadership positions, and especially from a lens of a country like India, which has so much diverse talent.
Rose: [47:09:41] So much diverse talent and some of the best and brightest I have ever worked with. So that's a really good question, Prakash. and I think one of the things that I have always said, and whether it be I was part of an organization called NCWIT, National Center of Women in Technology. They have, there has to be an effort to make engineering cool again. And I think, and I don't know what, why this is the case and I'm not trying to stereotype by any means. But I think boys are naturally attracted to engineering as an opportunity and a career. I have a daughter. I tried so hard, so hard to get her into engineering. Okay. And I failed. I failed. She's in finance. Which is, you know, it's not a bad career. But the crazy thing is, is what she ended up doing in finance is she builds these really, really complex financial models that in this day and age, you would call coding basically. I mean, it's not much a very different skill set, but somehow I couldn't translate the fun of that problem solving to an interest that would excite her. I failed. So maybe I'm not a great person to ask this question to. But at the end of the day, I think if we made a conscious effort to work on that translation of problem solving enables this sort of impact. And you could tie it into, you know, you know, all people are motivated differently. Some people are motivated by emotion. Some people are motivated by data. Some people are motivated by money, but being super specific on the inspirational efforts of that problem solving, I think would go a long way. And the second thing that I would say is that with the with the emergence and growth and scale of AI, there really isn't many industries that won't be touched by AI. and by engineering. So for me, I think it should be a foundational skill. Now, there will be some things that I don't think will be replaced. Like you go in to get your car, the body shop to get your car repaired. I think it's gonna be a real long time before you see robotics and AI in that environment. So if you're plumbing breaks in your house, you, a plumber has to drive his car out and fix the plumbing or the air conditioning. So I think there's some fields that are a little bit insulated from that. But generally, if you're in enterprise, if you're in tech, um, engineering will be a foundational requirement, um, and should be treated as such in early education.
Prakash: [50:43:24] Make engineering cool. Love it.
Rose: [50:46:18] One is make engineering cool, and two is make engineering a requirement.
Prakash: [50:52:03] India can definitely take advantage of it.
Rose: [50:57:48] And by the way, you could lead in it.
Prakash: [51:00:27] Yeah, agree. Agree. We have the skills.
Rose: [51:03:07] Like I don't think you would see that in the United States. I do think you could see that in India. Our education system is 50 years old, right? Our education, our education system was built on an infrastructure and the economy that is way different than today's and has never been updated and I think there is a giant overhaul that's required, but that's a whole another podcast in itself.
Prakash: [51:26:47] There is an opportunity for India to leapfrog with you.
Rose: [51:29:48] Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
Prakash: [51:32:46] So reflecting back on your career, Rose, what were your main takeaways? What advice would you have, especially for women, if they are starting off or they are in their career journey that you learned? What were your turning points? What were your major milestones? Basically I'm asking what were your like big highlights and advice?
Rose: [51:58:32] Yeah, and I'm going to answer this a little differently. and because highlights, I could like rip off a series of things that me and my team were a part of that will stay with me until, you know, I'm on my deathbed. They were so close to my heart. But I'm going to answer it in a way where that you first asked it, which were what are the events that were most consequential? So if you're okay with me going in that direction, because I think they had more impact than the achievements. Yeah. The first one, I was a young engineer. I was working in the fab. So I was a semiconductor girl, like true like inside out. Like I had a bunny suit on. and it was a Friday afternoon at about 4:30 and I had just started. So everybody else probably left early and went to happy hour or something, but I was afraid to, so I was still in the factory, still in my bunny suit. And I left and I went up to the office and I sat down and started to get my desk ready to go home for the weekend. And the factory manager came up to me and he said, we just had a run card, which was the instruction set for the process technology, fall into an acid bay. That is a serious safety issue. I want all of those run cards for the process that we're qualifying, because they were big and floppy and they didn't fit in the in the slot very well. I want them off the floor and I don't want a single misprocessing. And I looked around and it was like me, myself, and I. Like, so I had nobody to ask. I had no idea what to do. And the lesson was I just acted. I went down, you're going to die. I took a pen and some sticky notes so I wouldn't lose traceability, and I labeled all those lot boxes and I cleared out all those cards. And worked with the manufacturing supervisor to make sure that he knew where everything was so we could print new run cards and get them back in processing. So that was a big lesson on acting. You just act. And then later in my career, I would augment that with when I worked for a gentleman by the name of Doug Davis. He would always tell me when all else fails decide. And that was a quality that I saw lacking in my final years at Intel. There were very few people that were willing to take the risk to make a decision because they were afraid of what the implications would be if they weren't successful on their personal careers. And I learned from that day in the fab through the first CPU that I built with my team, not me personally, but my team built, to working with Doug Davis that decision making was a real skill. And it drove a lot of accountability. The other thing was I'll give you one more example and it was a leadership and management example. So that was kind of a skill set. This is leadership and management. I was a GM and I was a GM that would get like great management scores. Remember we would do those scorecards? And they were, they were always really good. And I got a setback and they were horrible, absolutely horrible. And um, I cried. Like I sat in my cube and I cried. Like I was mortified. And I finally found someone, like I took me a long time because you have the sessions with your team and you get not the honest feedback, but after a series of conversation, I found a few folks that told me that I was moving too quickly and leaving people behind. Yeah. So I didn't slow down to speed up. And then I ended up working for a guy by the name of Kirk Skaugen, who used to say that frequently, which is, sometimes you've got to slow down to speed up, to bring people along with you. So the moral of both of those stories is the things that stayed with me were the learnings from my failures or times where I felt outside of my comfort zone. So you will have successes in your career. But the failures will be, the failures and the movement out of your comfort zone will be the ones that imprint you and help you grow the most.
Prakash: [57:04:42] Awesome stories. And you're so right that when you're dealing with challenges, your head space is I have to get out of it as fast as possible. But reflecting back on the toughest situations is sometimes you will, at least it has held true for me is I learned the maximum from those rather than the positive ones.
Rose: [57:30:31] Absolutely. And can I get can I just give you one more really quickly?
Prakash: [57:34:03] Absolutely. Yeah, sure.
Rose: [57:35:10] Because the class I teach, we actually do an exercise on this. Do not be afraid to ask for help. We were building this Nehalem class, member Nehalem, Prakash? We were building this Nehalem class CPU and we, the design team like crushed it, but we were having troubles with validation. And Doug Davis asked me one really important question. It was one, I've cried three times at work. I'm going to tell you about two of them. He asked me, did you ask for help? And I was like, oh my God. I let my desire to not, to be to my team, the ultimate problem solver, impact our ability as an organization to be successful. And I didn't. So, collaboration means asking for help. Asking for help is a sign of strength. It's not a sign of weakness.
Prakash: [58:32:38] Yeah, agree.
Rose: [58:34:00] That would be the other thing that I would say if I were telling people about things that imprinted my career, that would be the third one.
Prakash: [58:42:15] So we have come a long way, Rose. We started with rapid fire. We did semiconductor ecosystem. We did women in tech. We talked about foundational IP and so many other aspects including your career journey. Now this is the last question that I plan to ask all my guests. India's semiconductor and deep tech ecosystem journey is not only about domestic growth. It's about our place in the global technology landscape. So fast forward 10, 15, 20 years, what are the profound ways you believe India's success in building this ecosystem will have either in reshaping the global technology landscape or advancing human capability?
Rose: [59:28:43] Sure. Oh, and I love when I get an opportunity to just postulate and dream. So I would start by saying, as I very much appreciate India's role as the world's leading, largest, largest democracy. And with that comes tenants of how you work, how you innovate, and how you collaborate. So, as I sit in a country right now where some of those similar tenants as we are parallel in both being democracies and in the US of some of those democratic tenants are being tested, you have an opportunity on a global stage to take what I think is a huge leadership position. We've mentioned this a couple times. You have an incredibly large, deep talent pool. How can you unleash that talent on some of the world's biggest problems, not just India's problems? Now, we and I want to be clear, I realize that when we talked about semiconductors, I was very specific on how to begin with differentiation needed and required by India. But now you've let me dream. So I'm going to say, how do you unleash that talent on some of the global problems? And I'm not saying ignore profitability. How do you take a leadership position in misinformation? Right. Divide. Global governance. Social connection. Mental health. The environment is one that people always talk about. But I think, a void has been created, is starting to be created is maybe a better way to say it. And India is in a position based on its talent to step in and lead from a global perspective. Second, can you drive a collection of like-minded nations to be front footed on some of the governance for AI, such that it's used for good and not overtaken by bad actors? And then I should close with semis. India has the opportunity to focus world leading, relevant engineering base and unison with government focus and ecosystem development to really begin to take a position in the global semiconductor market.
Prakash: [01:02:31:39] Fantastic. That's a very inspiring way to close our conversation, Rose.
Rose: [01:02:37:44] Thank you for the opportunity, Prakash.
Prakash: [01:02:39:46] Wishing you the very best. And for our listeners, please subscribe to our show in whichever channel you watch it. And look forward to hearing back your feedback on how I can do better. Thank you.